Transcript: This is the full, unedited transcript of Episode 2 of The Parent Portal. This episode focuses on helping kids follow directions and increasing following directions on a daily basis, with practical strategies parents can use at home. This transcript is meant to support accessibility for all parents. For a more simplified version of this content, visit my parent blog.

Megan Connell (00:01)

Hi, I'm Megan Connell.

Jen (00:04)

Hi, and I'm Jennifer Paz, and welcome to the parent portal. Portal! I was gonna say, welcome to the parent portal. anyway.

Megan Connell (00:07)

and you're listening to the Parent Portal. You're welcome.

You're listening to the Parent Portal.

Welcome. You're listening. Thank you for coming. Thank you for joining us. The Parent Portal, this episode is called How to Increase Following Directions. ⁓ This podcast is a space for light conversations about the heavy things that show up in parenting. Each episode, we talk through real questions and common behavior challenges.

Jen (00:22)

to the parent portal.

Megan Connell (00:45)

And we offer practical evidence-based strategies parents can try at home. We want to remind you this is an educational, not medical or therapeutic advice. And it's meant to support, not replace professional care. Here at the Parent Portal, we are guided by this philosophy. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away. Hi, Jen. I'm good. I'm good.

Jen (01:11)

Hi Megan, how are you doing today?

Megan Connell (01:14)

I'm really good. I'm gonna go ski after this, Jen. We got some snow. Yeah, finally. No, we got a bunch of cold weather, but no snow. Yeah, I'm excited. So I guess you're not gonna share it with us, because you're like a mystery wrapped enigma wrapped in a riddle.

Jen (01:18)

All right, that sounds good.

I thought you guys got a bunch.

Well,

Well, I'm going to. ⁓

No, I'm gonna meet my son for

dinner tonight. ⁓

Megan Connell (01:42)

wrapped in an old lady's body. What?

⁓ that would be nice. Okay. that's what my mom says. ⁓ that'd be nice. ⁓ that'd be nice. That would be nice. that'd be fun. And so that's funny that you use this little ⁓ momism because my mom

Jen (01:47)

I'm gonna meet my son for dinner later.

Yes!

that'd be nice.

Megan Connell (02:08)

I wanted to share with everyone that my mom was listened to the podcast. And she said that she agreed with you what we said on our last podcast that ⁓ sometimes it's just because I said so. And so she liked that she liked it. She liked your and I reminded her, you know, I reminded her that if kids were listening to that type of like adult direction, then their parents might not even be listening to this podcast.

Jen (02:23)

⁓ really?

really?

Megan Connell (02:38)

Um, yeah, my mom liked it. My mom thought it was a good thing. She likes that militant militant parenting. No, no, no, I joke. I joke. But she, I reminded her and she was like, Oh, that's right. Because we have family that she was like, Oh, right. Like that wouldn't work. That wouldn't work with, you know, everybody, every kid that could make things a lot worse, you know,

Jen (02:39)

Yeah, I wasn't saying that as a good thing.

Hahaha!

Oh yeah. No,

kids like to know why, for sure.

Megan Connell (03:09)

And yeah, and

especially kids who are having a hard time regulating or already following, know, hearing the word no, right? It's already really hard for them. ⁓ those are strategies for those kids, not for the kids who say, shucks, okay, you said so mom. So she was in agreement after that, she conceded.

Jen (03:17)

⁓ yeah.

Yes.

good. Okay. I wasn't saying you should use that.

Megan Connell (03:38)

that so and No,

well, maybe if it works, ⁓ why not I don't know It's not likely to work likely to work with a lot of kids so some kids yes All right, so today's I also wanted to make a couple of other brief ⁓ mentions about the last episode to ⁓

Jen (03:50)

I suppose if it worked.

Megan Connell (04:08)

things I thought about afterwards, I might often do this where I think about something after we air the episode, and I want to just share my ⁓ afterthoughts about it. I know, like in the last episode, I was saying like, ⁓ this works. This, this absolutely works about using the that's not mind to share with you as a reason why a kid can't have something sometimes. And, ⁓ yeah, and I

Jen (04:32)

yes, I remember that.

Megan Connell (04:37)

I wanted to mention just that like mine is ⁓ Maybe is the key word like not mine is maybe the key word in that because mine is kind of the first Concept that kids learn like that's mine, right? They always like that's mine So saying it's not mine You know instead of that's not ours or that's not yours Maybe one of the reasons why that is helpful even for kids with lower, you know lower language skills ⁓

Jen (04:52)

Right, right.

Megan Connell (05:06)

And then also just if I say it works all the time, it's only in my own experiences and only if a kid is already regulated, you know, if a kid's not regulated and is not is already in a meltdown, ⁓ then nothing, ⁓ you know, usually you just go into like triage at that point, right? A lot of your strategies are not going to work. You're just going to try to, you know, ⁓ manage that dysregulation and

Jen (05:28)

Yeah.

Megan Connell (05:35)

to get back down to a baseline. I just wanted to put that kind of caveat on that it always works. Yeah, and I always use it. I'm always saying that she's she's, I always leave her speechless.

Jen (05:41)

That's good, because always is a dangerous word.

haha

You always gotta stop saying that.

You did

Megan Connell (06:07)

Now back to the... This is going to be like a two-hour podcast. Okay, now back to the...

Jen (06:18)

Perfect.

Megan Connell (06:18)

The topic

at hand. Thank you. This will be a two hour podcast of pauses of me pausing to think. Last time we had our last episode, we talked about telling kids what you want them to do instead of telling them what you want to stop. So saying, keep your food on your plate or food, use your spoon.

Jen (06:21)

Anytime.

Megan Connell (06:46)

We use the table as an example, the dinner time as an example for a lot of things. Then I thought to myself, ⁓ when they parents see that behavior, how do we keep making sure that that behavior continues to happen?

Jen (07:03)

a lot of times when a kid is doing what's expected or what you prefer them to be doing, that you don't, you kind of ignore it. You don't give it any attention. And then, and then.

Megan Connell (07:17)

Yes. And then it might

stop because the kid never found out that that was what you wanted or never received any feedback about like, keep doing that. That's great. We love that here. In this house, we love food on a spoon. So

Jen (07:37)

Yes.

Yeah,

and they don't know if that's the right thing if you don't say anything.

Megan Connell (07:48)

Right.

Right. And so if you are seeing behaviors that you have replaced with the behavior you want to see, how do you keep making sure that your kid continues those behaviors? Right. So I wanted to talk about that today because we gave some tips about how to get the behavior you want to see.

and to minimize the behaviors you don't want to see with the saying no and telling kids what you want to see instead. But I wanted to talk about then how to now keep seeing the behavior that you asked for and to make sure that that continues to happen. So we're going to talk about reinforcement and what Jen you had some thoughts about reinforcement like what

Jen (08:42)

All right.

Megan Connell (08:46)

when you hear the word reinforcement, what do you think of? Because I know from me, from a behavior analytics standpoint, and from a teaching standpoint, I know what I think of when I think of reinforcement. It's like very technical kind of scientific thinking about it. So what do you think about it?

Jen (09:05)

I don't think that a lot of people understand. I know when I started working with kids at the school, I didn't really understand what reinforcement meant. I didn't understand that if I ignored a behavior that I preferred to see, that I wasn't giving the kid any information about.

continuing that or ⁓ if the child's doing something you don't want to see, all of a sudden you're giving them lots of attention. You know, even if it's negative attention, it's attention. And then that negative behavior continues and I never understood that. So I guess that should be clarified.

Megan Connell (09:48)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm

Right, it's huge. That's yeah, it's a huge piece of why behaviors might continue even though, you know, your kid is getting told over and over that you don't wanna see that, right? So that's a really good point that you're not paying attention to the behaviors that you expect. I think this is because we,

Jen (10:04)

It's a huge subject. It's huge.

Megan Connell (10:28)

expected behaviors don't stand out to us. We don't even notice them because you're walking on the sidewalk. I don't even pay attention to that because that's what we do. We walk on a sidewalk. So why would I be like, wow, look at you're walking on a sidewalk ⁓ when that is the expected behavior or you're keeping your food on your plate. Thank you so much. I love when you keep your food on your plate. Why would I pay attention to that when

Jen (10:33)

Right.

Megan Connell (10:55)

That's what we do. We keep food on our plate. So those behaviors don't stick out so they don't get the attention that we We could give them or that we should give them in order to keep them Coming right like keep keep it coming. Give me more of these expected behaviors ⁓ so I think a crazy

Jen (11:14)

Right, right.

Megan Connell (11:23)

Let's assume in this episode that your child is already. Believe your child is reinforced by positive attention. That is the assumption we're going to make, but that is not an across the board assumption that you can make about every kid. So if you you know those kids that are they you give them a positive.

feedback or you give them a positive reinforcement and verbal praise and they you never see the behavior again. It's like dead. It's dead in the water that behavior is gone. And the only thing you did was tell them how much you like that behavior.

Jen (12:03)

no.

Yeah, that's, it's confusing, you know.

Megan Connell (12:11)

⁓

Yeah,

so that so if that is your kid, this is not your episode. Come back next time. This is your episode. You do not want to do any of these things. If your kid does not like a specific verbal praise from you, don't give it to them. That's a totally different, totally different thing. And not every kid. And it's not unusual for that to happen. So it's.

Jen (12:20)

Yes

Megan Connell (12:40)

Your kid is in good company with a lot of other kids out there that do not like, ⁓ you know, positive social attention, right?

Jen (12:50)

My own daughter, when she was little, not. She would do something and I'd go, that's so great. And she'd get mad and stomp off. I go, what did I do? Yeah.

Megan Connell (12:54)

Yeah.

Yeah, right. Yes.

in order for positive social attention to be reinforcing. if I, you know, you're not reinforcing this way. So that's one big thing about reinforcement is that it's not, it's not a guarantee that positive social attention is going to be reinforcing. ⁓ I think also this idea that you talked about of reinforcing

on intentionally reinforcing behaviors that you don't want to see. So if if your child is one of the many children who are reinforced by attention and you know your kid, even if it's negative attention, like you said, Jen, they want your attention most of the time, right? They might not want your verbal praise, but they want your attention. So they may be

Jen (13:56)

Right.

Megan Connell (14:02)

getting that a lot more of that when they're doing the things you don't want to see because those are the things that stick out. You're getting all the attention when you're not walking on the sidewalk and you're getting all the attention when you're, you know, ⁓ throwing water on the kitchen floor, food is on the table, right? So that's where all your attention starts going. And that has to happen.

Jen (14:20)

Food is on the table.

Megan Connell (14:31)

I think it's when you start seeing these patterns around those. When you start seeing the behaviors, more of the behaviors you don't want to see and so few of the behaviors you do want to see. That is a big sign that your child has flipped the script and they're like, this is where this is where the money flows. This is where all the good stuff gets, you know, this is where I get all the good stuff is when I'm doing these things that

⁓ I probably maybe kind of know I shouldn't be doing, right?

Jen (15:07)

because then they're the center of attention when they're throwing their food across the dinner table. And that's what they wanted was attention.

Megan Connell (15:14)

Right. so.

Right. And now here's the great thing about attention is that I think, like we said, you can't ignore those things. You can't ignore, you know, maybe that will at some point be part of your plan, but it's not fun. It's not necessarily like the best.

way to deal with these things, but you can't ignore, know, maybe this is what I'm saying. Maybe at some point you will ignore behaviors. But right now I'm saying don't ignore it, but give it as little attention as possible while you redirect it. ⁓ Right? You don't. So attention has magnitudes and intensities, just like attention is a behavior, just like

Jen (15:57)

⁓

Megan Connell (16:06)

⁓ you know, crying is a behavior I might be crying and you might not even know I'm like crying or I might be like screaming and crying. So these are the same things but at different intensities. So and magnitudes. So your attention can be the same way you can give little minimal, non reinforcing attention to the things you don't want to see. And big great. Wow, you're amazing. Look at you. You're using your spoon.

We're all using our spoon. We're gonna like can we I need to think of other ways like using your spoon We should call this the like use use your spoon podcast like how to use a spoon or every episode is Every episode is called how to use a spoon I Gotta write something down. It just is like the first thing pick up your toys

Jen (16:42)

Well

Well, because it's a good example. I think it's a good example. ⁓ How about pick up your toys?

Megan Connell (17:05)

Or put them in the, right, pick them up. Don't throw them. Right, or like, here's, here's a, I think, right, please, please stop throwing the toys at my head. ⁓ So I think that the, I think that's a good one too. So picking up your toys because there's, you know, there are levels of picking up and cleaning up that we want.

Jen (17:05)

You could pick up your toys. Don't throw them at mom's head.

Please don't turn them at my head.

Megan Connell (17:33)

And there's behaviors within that behavior that we want to see more of. And there's behaviors within that behavior that we want to see less of, like throwing them. So time to pick up your toys. And we start throwing toys across the room into the toy chest. ⁓ Okay, great. We got a bit of that. So then I would redirect it. ⁓ let's walk over or move the toy chest to the child, right? And just minimize the demand on that and say, ⁓

Let's put them in. And so you are not giving throwing much attention. You're just fixing the environment. So you're not saying don't throw your toys like, ⁓ you're just fixing the environment. And you're saying, let's put them in. Let's put them in the toy chest. And so you're not you're not not saying anything. You're not just like, well,

Jen (18:10)

⁓ right. Instead of saying...

Here's another way to pick.

Megan Connell (18:31)

throw the toys across the room and you know, right over the dog's head or right over little, you know, Sally's head, you're fixing it. So you're saying like, that's not what I want, but you're never saying that's not what I want. You're just like fixing the environment or you're showing what you want. Again, you're not saying no, you're saying what I want you to do and maybe making a little bit easier for that to happen. And then your...

So you're giving very little attention to that behavior you don't want to see. And then when the toys start going in appropriately, ⁓ thank you so much. You're so good at cleaning up toys. Thank you. You're so helpful. I love it when you help clean up the toy room. You know, so ⁓ that's a much better example than eating with a spoon, Jen. I thank you for that. I thank you.

Jen (19:21)

anytime although

there's there's times at the dinner table or whatever so they're both good they're both good

Megan Connell (19:26)

It's a billion! ⁓

They're

good. I mean I will say I like yours better Yeah, yeah, you're doing a good job I'm glad you're here I'm glad you're here with me to help me get off the spoon thing I'm good. Yes. That's right Specific verbal praise now. Let's talk about it being really specific

Jen (19:37)

⁓ well thank you very much.

Well, thank you.

you're giving me positive attention for my toy.

Megan Connell (19:59)

because then you know this is the same thing about keeping telling your child what you want to see, make it really specific. So instead of saying don't do this and then they hear, you know, don't run down the hall and they hear run down the hall. You're saying walk down the hall and they're hearing walk down the hall. So the specific verbal praise is also reinforcing that.

Jen (20:00)

Okay.

Megan Connell (20:27)

language of what you want to see. they're not, they're not, you're such a good boy. They might be thinking, wow, he must be talking about how I threw that toy a minute ago. Because that's all I'm thinking about. Right? You don't know what your child is thinking about. So you need to tell them what you're thinking about.

Jen (20:39)

yes. right.

Megan Connell (20:55)

So instead of just, you're such a good boy, ⁓ we could say, I love it when you put the toys in the toy box so gently. I love to name behaviors when kids are, I love to name behaviors when kids aren't being ⁓ safe with their bodies, kids who are unsafe with their bodies.

unlike go crashing around or they don't, or they may be like some aggression they might hit or they when they're around their little brother, they may be more likely to, you know, grab or pinch or push. Anytime they're not doing that. I say you are so safe with your body. Thank you for being so safe with your body. It's kind of abstract but then

I think they can think to themselves, what am I doing with my body right now? All of the things, my hands are to myself. I'm, you know, being careful. I'm moving around my friends or my siblings like really safely. I'm not bumping into people. I'm being safe with my body. ⁓ So instead of being like, thank you, you're such a good boy. I say, you're so safe with your body or you're so kind to your brother. Anytime I see the behavior where the

behavior I don't want to see is absent. So I might, I might be praising the behavior I see and naming it. You're so helpful. Thank you for cleaning up. I love it when you put the toys in the toy box so gently. Or I may be praising absence of a behavior. ⁓ And I might say, you are so safe with your body. Thank you. You're being so safe right now.

Jen (22:21)

Okay.

Megan Connell (22:47)

And then this is, it's really, really technical about how you can get really technical about how often you're praising the absence of this behavior. You want to do this only when your kid is engaged in other behaviors you want to see, not just like I'm praising you. You're not hitting your brother, but you're throwing bath water on the floor.

you know, or you're not using your spoon. You know, so we, but if you're, if you're any behavior, they could just be like sitting on the couch watching TV and the sibling is in proximity and your kid, you know, your kid loves to hear you tell them all the great things that you think they're doing.

Jen (23:21)

there we go. Spoon again.

Ha

Megan Connell (23:44)

because you're the best person in their life and they're like, my mom's the best and my dad's the best and I love it when they tell me how great I am. You can tell them you are so safe with your body and you're being so kind to your brother right now. And all they're doing is watching TV, right? But they're not engaged in that other behavior. So ⁓ you'll see more of that.

Jen (24:03)

Right.

Megan Connell (24:11)

behavior where we're not engaged because you're reinforcing it and you'll see more behaviors that you want to see when you are reinforcing it and your kid knows what you like because you're telling them specifically when you have that language. I love it when you keep your when you keep your feet on the sidewalk. I love it when you you know you go first feet first down the slide.

You, ⁓ you're such a good listener. Thank you for putting your dish in the sink. ⁓ You know, so keeping that just making it really specific so that your child knows, ⁓ that was the thing that we want to see more of.

Jen (24:58)

So Megan, one time I was at my sister's house and her grandchild was climbing up on the table and my sister was pulling her off saying no. And I said, the next time she climbed up, I pulled her off and said, feet on the floor. So should I have done more than just say feet on the floor?

Megan Connell (25:27)

Yeah, yeah, I don't think so. I think you could have I think what you did was great. And I think you could have said 30 seconds later or 10 seconds later. I love it when you keep your feet on the floor. Thank you for keeping your feet on the floor. You're so safe. You know,

Jen (25:28)

Like what else could have happened then?

Okay.

Megan Connell (25:51)

and then if that keeps happening, if those behaviors like climbing on the table keep happening, I would, you know, there's a lot of ways to that you might need to work on, you know, minimizing a behavior like that. I had a student that was just when I started in the classroom, ⁓ when I moved classrooms, he was just every 10 minutes he was up on a table and I

you know, it was one of those folding tables and I was like, let's get rid of it. Like, let's fold it up, right? So change your environment. If she's climbing up on the chairs, maybe move them away so that happens less often and then praise it and then reinforce it. Like you are so safe. You're keeping your feet on the floor, but you as the parent are also making it harder for her to engage in that behavior because you've moved the chairs a little bit farther away. ⁓

Jen (26:46)

Okay.

Megan Connell (26:48)

And then again, like you're saying what you want her to do, and then you can praise it, praise what you see the expected behavior is, right.

Jen (26:58)

Okay, so like

seconds later, ⁓ I love your feet on the floor or whatever to reinforce her feet being on the floor.

Megan Connell (27:04)

Yeah, yeah.

Right, right. And again, if she keeps getting on the table, well then maybe there's like a sensory reason, we need to try to give her a replacement for climbing, give her a place to climb or, ⁓ you know, be on top of the praising the other behavior of keeping, the alternative behavior of keeping her feet on the floor, ⁓ you know, and.

Jen (27:12)

Okay.

Megan Connell (27:36)

keep making sure every time you walk into the kitchen and she has her feet on the floor, remind her like, you're doing such a great job. Keep being safe and keeping your feet down. And again, don't remind her you're doing such a great job of not climbing on the table because then she might go, that's right. I do love that. Thank you for reminding me. I miss that activity. I haven't done that in so long.

Jen (27:48)

Okay.

No!

love climbing on tables.

⁓ no!

Megan Connell (28:05)

Gosh, thanks for the reminder. I would love a good table climb today. I'm the queen of the kitchen.

Jen (28:08)

So when the...

love climbing tables. ⁓

So let's go back to the playroom

and the child's throwing the toys and they want to throw them but you're telling them, ⁓ let's try this and put them in gently in the toy bin. But the throwing continues.

Megan Connell (28:23)

Let's. ⁓ yeah.

Jen (28:39)

Is it?

Should you then show them another way that they could throw? Like, let's go outside and play ball or you know what I'm trying to say?

Megan Connell (28:51)

Yes, I do. think that, I think like the climbing behavior is going to be to have two reasons why it usually happens. Well, and a lot of times things get paired with attention. So it's like, I'm climbing for fun, but then I get a ton of mom's attention when I climb.

Your mom stops mom stops everything she's doing and comes and pays attention to me when I climb. So it's either going to have a sensory function like you're saying with the throwing the toys throwing toys climbing tables. They might have a sensory function where it's just like automatically reinforcing because it feels good or I just want my body wants this or it could have like an escape.

Jen (29:10)

Yeah, but yeah.

⁓ right.

Megan Connell (29:35)

function for throwing like when I throw the toys mom stops me and puts all the toys away herself and I don't have to clean them up or mom stops me throws puts the toys away and I then also get a ton of her attention or with the climbing the tables I think to myself is there something on I always think like climbing is often about access so like what are what are we trying to get why are we climbing

Jen (29:43)

⁓

Megan Connell (30:02)

So with those things in mind, I would think like if your kid keeps throwing the toys in the toy room or they keep doing the behavior, there's another reason why. And then maybe we need to just solve that reason instead of saying, ⁓ move on to this thing. You know, like if this one doesn't work, there's like another element. If you are telling your kid what you want them to do,

Jen (30:18)

okay.

Megan Connell (30:32)

and you are, ⁓ if you're telling your kid what you want them to do and you're praising them or reinforcing them when they are ⁓ doing it and you still keep seeing the other behavior, I think like then it's kind of like, is there not enough attention to the good behavior? I didn't, I didn't mean to say good. Is there not enough attention to the behavior you want to see? Like behaviors aren't good or bad.

I'm like, okay, well, whoops. ⁓ they're just behaviors. It's okay. We all have them. ⁓ so I, if are you paying not enough attention to the behavior you want to see more of? Or are you paying more attention still to the behavior that you want to see less of? You know, like, is it? ⁓

Jen (31:03)

⁓ right, right. They're just behaviors.

Megan Connell (31:31)

Do you, what is the other reason it's happening too? Could be the real question. You know, not, not that like, I didn't know what to do and I get better, you know, the, you know, the jackpots on the other side where I'm throwing toys. You know, if it's attention maintained, you wanna, again, keep the, keep your reaction.

Jen (31:48)

Right.

Megan Connell (31:55)

That could be too, watch your reaction to the behavior you don't wanna see. If the behavior, if the throwing the toys gets like a, ⁓ my gosh.

up, right? And then the praise gets, you did such a good job throw putting your toys in, which one's got, you know, which one's, which one is better, as far as like the magnitude of the attention or right, so that is something to think about too, like, if, if, if it's not, if you still keep seeing the behavior, think about how you're reacting to each one. And which which one

Jen (32:08)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Megan Connell (32:35)

could feel again, like you said at the beginning, just because it's not positive and you're not saying you're so great. You know, you might be like, stop. my gosh, I don't like that. Stop it now. And then, ⁓ I like that so much. Thank you. Doesn't matter. Like there's, it's that whole, like, there's no such thing as bad press. There's no, if you like attention, there's no such thing as bad attention.

Jen (33:03)

Right,

Yeah.

Megan Connell (33:05)

You know, if you are,

if you want it, you, you know, if you want, if you only want, you know, your parents to tell you that you they're like proud of you. You know, there's a whole not even going to get into like the whole like, oh, like internal, you know, motivation. We're not there. Right. That is a thing. And we hope for that. But I mean, even I'm not there sometimes. So

Jen (33:29)

Right?

Megan Connell (33:35)

Come on, I want praise and you know, I want my professors, I want my boss to tell me I'm doing a good job. want you know. ⁓ So anyway, are you like how if there are kids like that who don't want any type of like negative attention that would upset them. But there are kids that are like, ⁓ it's like

Jen (33:39)

yeah.

Megan Connell (34:02)

It doesn't matter. There's no such thing as bad press, you know, there's no such thing as bad attention. And again, is your is your corrective attention or your giving feedback or your, you know, saying stop it attention, much more interesting and better than your praising what you want to see attention? Well, then a lot of kids will be like, that's again, that's where this good stuff is. When mom

Jen (34:06)

Right. Right.

Right.

Megan Connell (34:31)

you know, starts, you know, acting like she saw a mouse or something. Right. Right. It's a good reaction. So good. It's such a good day. Yeah.

Jen (34:34)

When mom gets really excited, that motivates me. So even if she's really excited saying, get off the table or put the food in the spoon. But if the reaction is huge, yeah, you're going to get,

⁓ wow, look at all the attention I'm getting. Yeah. Yeah.

Megan Connell (34:58)

I liked that, right, absolutely.

Yeah, ⁓ so, no, no, you, go, go, go, go, you, please.

Jen (35:04)

Okay.

I think the other, go ahead.

All right, okay,

okay. So the other thing is I think a lot of people, myself included probably when my kids were little, label behavior as good or bad when it simply is just a behavior. You know what I'm saying?

Megan Connell (35:32)

Right.

Jen (35:35)

I that leads, I don't know really where I was going with that.

Megan Connell (35:42)

Well. So.

Jen (35:44)

except I don't, I think it's all just a behavior. Just because you don't want a kid on the table doesn't make...

Bad it just is not what you want

Megan Connell (35:57)

There was a reason why your kid got up on the table. Your kid got up on the table because they needed something off the table. And they didn't know how to come and ask you for it. Or it's faster. I mean, we all, every single human being takes the path of least resistance. So if I could just climb up on the table and get what I want or climb up on the counter and get what I want, I'm going to do that instead of like going and finding you and initiating.

Jen (36:03)

Right.

Megan Connell (36:24)

like asking you because this expedient, it's more expedient and maybe language is not super easy for me. Or I just like to climb and I'm in the house and I don't have a jungle gym in the house. So I'm climbing or I'm, you know, just don't want to clean up. But it's fun to throw things. Like you said, there's like a sensory element to that. you know, there's always a reason for what we're doing. I think that

trying to figure out the reason and helping to solve the solution that your kid needs to make the behavior happen more or to make the behavior happen less depending on what you want. It's like, yeah, there's no such thing as like a good or bad behavior. All behavior is communication. So like trying to figure out what is being communicated with that behavior and trying to help solve it.

Jen (37:14)

I get.

Yeah, I guess that's where I was going. It's just a communication. in your mind, if you're saying, that's bad, you've kind of made the kid bad mentally in your head. And I just think that causes a lot of problems. It's probably really off topic, isn't it?

Megan Connell (37:24)

Yeah.

No, no,

I think it's well, I mean, we're talking about behavior. I think it is. I think it's a great point to make. I also think that I started it when I started to say good. You want the good behavior? And I was like, because we all know. ⁓

Jen (38:04)

As Homer Simpson would say, go!

Megan Connell (38:07)

I love that. I love that. It's like the best. It's like the best show. ⁓ So, ⁓ so like, I think that another thing is that we think of it's so true because when I think of behavior, we talk about behavior, it's always like behaviors we want to see less of or how to fix this thing. And a behavior is like our talking right now is a behavior or

Jen (38:11)

You

That's pretty funny.

Megan Connell (38:36)

reading as a behavior and you know, so there's a it's it's just it's a really big umbrella and it doesn't need to be minimized down to like this one little thing that we are being you know, judgmental about. I agree with you. So now I think it's a good that doesn't mean it's going to stay in the podcast doesn't mean it's not going to get cut but I think it's good. It's a good point.

Jen (38:54)

Okay.

Megan Connell (39:05)

In our last episode, you made a really good point that helping in the kitchen could be reinforcing, ⁓ right? That could be like something that the kid really likes to do. So,

Jen (39:13)

⁓

Megan Connell (39:20)

There's a lot of different ways that kids might say, ⁓ this is really rewarding for me. Your verbal praise, your specific verbal praise, it's really reinforcing to me. So I'm gonna keep doing the thing that you told me got your attention, right? Your positive attention. ⁓

Jen (39:46)

Right.

Megan Connell (39:49)

you know, cleaning, cleaning the, doing the dishes with you at the sink is really reinforcing for me. So if I keep my feet down and you tell me that I kept my feet on the floor, so now I get to go wash dishes with you, then I am going to keep my feet on the floor more. So really we talked a lot about how to use social praise and social reinforcers during this episode.

but there are so many other reinforcers and ways to use reinforcement that we can use to increase a behavior. this is, you could make an entire podcast about reinforcement because it is literally the foundation of behavior analysis, right? It's what the whole.

Jen (40:44)

it's huge.

Megan Connell (40:46)

what the whole so I you know and and it is every single child and adult is different and and so trying to figure out you know so that in itself creates a whole you know array of topics that could be that you could talk about and then also like reinforcement schedules and when you when you reinforce and how often and what you use for you know

⁓ And we all receive reinforcement and we all get paid to go to work. Well, Jen doesn't. Jen is unemployed. ⁓ But we're all... Okay. ⁓

Jen (41:27)

I'm retired. There's a difference. Okay.

I get to volunteer now.

Megan Connell (41:39)

Yeah, yeah. Well, and so yes, because you've put in your, your time, right. But what I was gonna say is most people would not most people need that reinforcement, like in the form of money to do their you know what they do.

Jen (41:46)

I did.

I just remember all those years working at the school, the years working with you. The reinforcement part was probably the harder part of the job. When a student would, whatever, take off running across the classroom, your immediate instinct is to yell, stop, which just is.

for the student I'm thinking of reinforcing to him to keep running. And it's really hard to react in a way where... Go ahead.

Megan Connell (42:33)

Now, and I want to just

just I always want to stress that it's not

out of the classroom or out of the building or in an unsafe place. It's just running away from the table, maybe. Not running away, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jen (42:41)

no, no, no, running it. Yes, I said running it. I

said running it across the classroom.

Megan Connell (42:51)

You dead, you dead. I just wanted to stress that. Yeah.

Jen (42:55)

yeah, no, no, obviously

you would keep a student safe. You know that.

Megan Connell (43:01)

and

yell stop and yell and be very reactive and get their attention.

Jen (43:03)

NUDE.

But when it's not, ⁓

yeah, when it's not, I guess you have to remind yourself, is the child gonna get hurt or hurt somebody or whatever so that your response isn't panicked, I guess. So you can respond with your head and not your emotion.

Megan Connell (43:24)

Sure, right. And then

Right. And then, and then keep a low, a lower level intensity and magnitude and response so that your responses to behaviors that you don't want to see are mild and minimal. And kids don't try to get you to do that again. No kid is going to keep going out of their way to try to get you to say, come back to the table, please.

Jen (43:37)

and then

Right.

Right, right.

Megan Connell (44:06)

or when

you you know looks like you need a break when you're ready come back to the table right so they you so that response is not gonna be like it's reinforcing right so you're not gonna get that behavior because you i also often you know just try to remember to remind myself not to become this cause and effect toy

Jen (44:12)

You

Yeah.

Megan Connell (44:33)

for kids where it's like they can turn me on and off based on doing these things that they will know I don't like if I react like I don't like them, right? So some kids will be like, ⁓ like, mean, you know, if you, that could be entertaining to be like, look what I can do and turn somebody's, you know, turn somebody's behavior on and off. ⁓

Jen (44:37)

Right.

Right.

Megan Connell (45:03)

And they are like to us they are turning our baby on and off the kids are turning our behavior on and off like I can make you you know scream like Every time yeah, every time I put my finger in my nose you go. ⁓ gosh, don't you know so ⁓ As opposed to every time I put my finger in my in my nose

Jen (45:08)

Yes.

I can make it.

you ran! Yeah.

Get your finger out of your nose.

Megan Connell (45:31)

This lady comes over with a tissue and says use a tissue. ⁓ There's nothing exciting about that. That would make you go, I want to see that again. You're like four years old and you're like, cool. Every time like I can't it's almost like you're just like they're learning what behavior is themselves like, Whoa, wow, look at that. I every single time it's like Tessie's like,

Jen (45:39)

Yeah, that's right.

yeah! Yeah, there's...

yeah.

Megan Connell (46:02)

You know, like every single time,

is it gonna happen again? Oh my gosh, it did. And then like, oh, I'm bored. I'm so bored. Maybe I'll turn that, maybe I'll turn the oh no machine on. For, you know, right. Or like, so many, so many things.

Jen (46:08)

It did!

and stick my finger back up my nose. Yeah.

Yeah, it's really

hard when you're, you know, whether you're at home with your kids or in a classroom with kids, and in the moment, especially if you're tired and you overreact, which reinforces the behavior to continue, it's really hard.

Megan Connell (46:29)

And in the moment. Right.

Which right.

Right. ⁓

Jen (46:44)

But don't give up. You can do it. ⁓

Megan Connell (46:46)

Yeah,

good pep dog, Jen. Great pep dog, great. Thanks. Hey, parents, listen to Jen.

She's like a cheerleader. ⁓ gosh, she's so...

Jen (47:00)

Hey! I am! I'm the cheerleader. You can do it! It's so hard. Well, it can be. But don't give up. You can do it!

Megan Connell (47:08)

It's so hard and exhausting and yeah, it can't. Yeah. Right.

For sure. You're well, your pep talk didn't start off very peppy is all I'm saying. Like talking about how you started like, whoa, like the troops are. Yeah, the troops are down. Yeah. Like good things.

Jen (47:28)

sorry. I'm so tired. I don't care

if my kid's on the table. Okay. Maybe I shouldn't be a cheerleader. I don't know.

Megan Connell (47:36)

Good reminder, coach. Thanks. Let's go back out there and win this game. You're right. It's raining.

It's raining and it's muddy and there's and we're down and we're down 17 points or whatever. I don't know. What a big, what a, I don't know. God, I wish we had Mark Connell back on the phone. We should have answered the phone.

Jen (47:52)

It's raining.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Megan Connell (48:07)

Like what's the, what's the score when someone's killing in football? Yeah, they're big numbers. So, okay, I have more. I feel like I'm gonna say this all the time. But we will, I think we should do, we'll visit, revisit reinforcement again at some point.

Jen (48:07)

He would know.

A lot, a lot of numbers.

Big number.

okay. Well, yeah.

Yeah, because I think it's pretty big and it's really important.

Megan Connell (48:38)

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. And,

yeah, and like I said, with so there's so much to talk about with it, you know, sometimes, again, even timing is so important, like that 10 seconds or or immediately, right? ⁓ Immediately reinforcing, good job keeping your feet on the floor. And then Ian, like,

Jen (48:48)

Yeah.

Megan Connell (49:05)

30 seconds later, you have your feet on the floor. Thank you. You still have your feet on the floor. Just like me. Look at, we all are keeping our feet on the floor. Thank you for, you know. timing of reinforcement is like a huge, you know, part of it too. So, but I think just generally it's good to kind of think about those things that you had mentioned, just that.

Jen (49:24)

Yeah.

Megan Connell (49:35)

if you're the there is a saying in ABA that says behavior goes where reinforcement flows. So, ⁓ you like that? Yeah, I did not make that up people. It's the matching law and ⁓ it's basically saying

Jen (49:46)

⁓ wow, that's a good one. Yeah. well, that's cool.

Megan Connell (50:01)

where the reinforcement is, that's what the that's what you're going to see the behavior is going to be where the reinforcement is. So if the reinforcement is in telling me not to throw toys, that's where all my behavior is going to go and throwing toys. If the reinforcement is going towards being told that I'm putting the toys in the toy box gently. That's where all the reinforcement is. That's where my behavior is going to go. So I think it's a great topic to start with because it's kind of

foundational. So yeah, yeah. Right, right. And again, it's every behavior is not happening because of attention. Right. So if this, you know, so that's why there's so many more podcasts about it. Because this one was mostly about ⁓ reinforcement in the form of attention. Go ahead.

Jen (50:33)

it's great. It's succinct. It kind of clarifies it, you know? Yeah.

So do you wanna figure?

Alright.

and putting food in a spoon. I know. No, was gonna say. It is. It motivates me to get out of bed in the morning.

Megan Connell (51:04)

That's the behavior. Unless I mean, it's reinforcement for me. Food is reinforcing.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's coffee. Coffee. Coffee motivates me to get out of bed in the morning. Mm hmm. Yeah.

Jen (51:22)

That's wet. ⁓ I know if I can smell it brewing, I'm up and out of bed. Now I forget what I was going to say though.

Megan Connell (51:35)

OK, so say goodbye with me. Say goodbye, Chad. Goodbye. We're done for today. ⁓ OK, listeners, you know now.

Jen (51:42)

Bye, Megan. I'll see you again. Okay.

Megan Connell (51:51)

All right. So, all right, then, ⁓ listeners, we're gonna wrap it up. I think we got everything in for today. Okay, Jen, come back next time.

Jen (51:51)

You

Okay, we might have to tackle. Yeah,

let's do that.

Megan Connell (52:09)

Yeah.

Tackle

another, even though we don't know anything about football, let's keep this, keep this going. Tackle another down next time.

Jen (52:18)

Football phrasing.

Another 50 yards.

Megan Connell (52:27)

⁓ Okay, so people, listeners, listen, listen up. Listeners, we're gonna go. This is another episode of the Parent Portal. Thank you for listening. Goodbye, Jen. ⁓ If this episode gave you something to think about or try, take what fits and leave what doesn't.

Jen (52:46)

Goodbye, Megan.

Megan Connell (52:53)

Every family is different. So follow us or subscribe where you get your podcasts. We'll be back with another conversation soon. In the meantime, keep stepping to the music you hear.

Megan Connell (53:06)

This is how we end our podcast. Bye. Bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye bye.

Jen (53:10)

Bye bye. Bye. Bye bye bye bye bye bye.